iddiscussionparentuseriduserfullnamecreatedmodifiedmailedsubjectmessagemessageformatmessagetrustattachmenttotalscoremailnowdeletedprivatereplytoprivatereplytofullnamewordcountcharcount
16495363498034004László Pitlik173857839617385786501Corrupted logistic robot

The first challenge should be interpreted as follows: 

There is a logistic robot (demo: https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/304/robotkar.MOV).

This robot is functioning - seemingly correctly.

Question: are we capable of deriving all of the rules behind the visible surface?

Testing scenarios are already prepared: https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/testing_task1.xlsx

Tasks: interpreting all test scenarios (XLSX: 1;...;12), understanding data/structures, deriving the rules of the black box system, defining substitution-characters/colours for the used pattern: ?(????) <-- detailed solutions for place-ID (A;B;C;D)

100000072531
1649606349816495334004László Pitlik173857954217385801401Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Detailed demo-solutions for Scenario#9 (in Experiment#1):
***
  
***
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_colour=green
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_colour=blue
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_colour=red
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_colour=not-used
***
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_number=1
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_number=2
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_number=1
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_number=not-used=0
***
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_letters=(b)
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_letters=(ad)
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_letters=(c)
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_letters=not-used=()
***
Basic question: Is it correct? If not, which solution-layer why not?

100000046773
1649616349816496044100László Pitlik173858010717385801071Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Parallel question: How should we store all solution layers in case of all Students and assumped that everybody may store unlimited guesses for each experiment, scenario, layer? (It means: each layer can have different number of guesses in case of a particular Student. / The expected database-structure should support the evaluation of the best Student based e.g. on pivot-tables/queries...)
100000059333
1649626349816496046683Bilegt Gankhuyag173866317317386631731Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_ color =green
looks like should be:
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_ color =yellow
besides this, the solution seem to be correct overall. Deriving from: https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/testing_task1.xlsx
100000024232
1649636349816495346683Bilegt Gankhuyag173866484817386648481Tárgy: Corrupted logistic robot
Question: are we capable of deriving all of the rules behind the visible surface?
Answer: not all of the rules from the visible surface. Only the fact that the robot seem to be picking up the "cube"s from first in line and then scanning(most likely the color) them using using the machine on the left(from the camera point) then stacking them on the left in color order.
Task:
EXPT.9
***
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_ color =yellow
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_ color = blue
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_ color =red
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_ color =not-used
***
Cell(E27)_old_all= ? (????) <--Cell(E27)_new_number=1
Cell(E28)_old_all= ? (????) <--Cell(E28)_new_number=2
Cell(E29)_old_all= ? (????) <--Cell(E29)_new_number=1
Cell(E30)_old_all= ? (????) <--Cell(E30)_new_number=not-used=0
***
Cell(E27)_old_all=?( ???? ) <--Cell(E27)_new_letters=(b)
Cell( E28)_old_all=?( ???? ) <--Cell(E28)_new_letters=(ad)
Cell(E29)_old_all=?( ???? ) <--Cell(E29)_new_letters=(c)
Cell(E30)_old_all=?( ???? ) <--Cell(E30)_new_letters=not-used=()
***
EXPT.10
***
Cell(K27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K27)_new_ color =green
Cell(K28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K28)_new_ color = red
Cell(K29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K29)_new_ color =yellow
Cell(K30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K30)_new_ color =not-used
***
Cell(K27)_old_all= ? (????) <--Cell(K27)_new_number=2
Cell(K28)_old_all= ? (????) <--Cell(K28)_new_number=1
Cell(K29)_old_all= ? (????) <--Cell(K29)_new_number=1
Cell(K30)_old_all= ? (????) <--Cell(K30)_new_number=not-used=0
***
Cell(K27)_old_all=?( ???? ) <--Cell(K27)_new_letters=(ab)
Cell(K28)_old_all=?( ???? ) <--Cell(K28)_new_letters=(c)
Cell(K29)_old_all=?( ???? ) <--Cell(K29)_new_letters=(d)
Cell(K30)_old_all=?( ???? ) <--Cell(K30)_new_letters=not-used=()
***
EXPT.11
***
Cell(Q27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q27)_new_ color =red
Cell(Q28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q28)_new_ color = green
Cell(Q29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q29)_new_ color =yellow
Cell(Q30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q30)_new_ color =not-used
***
Cell(Q27)_old_all= ? (????) <--Cell(Q27)_new_number=1
Cell(Q28)_old_all= ? (????) <--Cell(Q28)_new_number=2
Cell(Q29)_old_all= ? (????) <--Cell(Q29)_new_number=1
Cell(Q30)_old_all= ? (????) <--Cell(Q30)_new_number=not-used=0
***
Cell(Q27)_old_all=?( ???? ) <--Cell(Q27)_new_letters=(b)
Cell(Q28)_old_all=?( ???? ) <--Cell(Q28)_new_letters=(ad)
Cell(Q29)_old_all=?( ???? ) <--Cell(Q29)_new_letters=(c)
Cell(Q30)_old_all=?( ???? ) <--Cell(Q30)_new_letters=not-used=()
***
EXPT.12

***
Cell(W27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W27)_new_ color =yellow
Cell(W28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W28)_new_ color = green
Cell(W29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W29)_new_ color =blue
Cell(W30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W30)_new_ color =not-used
***
Cell(W27)_old_all= ? (????) <--Cell(W27)_new_number=1
Cell(W28)_old_all= ? (????) <--Cell(W28)_new_number=1
Cell(W29)_old_all= ? (????) <--Cell(W29)_new_number=2
Cell(W30)_old_all= ? (????) <--Cell(W30)_new_number=not-used=0
***
Cell(W27)_old_all=?( ???? ) <--Cell(W27)_new_letters=(a)
Cell(W28)_old_all=?( ???? ) <--Cell(W28)_new_letters=(b)
Cell(W29)_old_all=?( ???? ) <--Cell(W29)_new_letters=(cd)
Cell(W30)_old_all=?( ???? ) <--Cell(W30)_new_letters=not-used=()
***
10000002852960
1649656349816496234004László Pitlik173866761617386676161Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Argumentation = there is no green cube in the set... :-)
10000001146
1649666349816496334004László Pitlik173866779917386679211Re: Tárgy: Corrupted logistic robot
There is a lot of potential errors in the solutions for #10-11-12 (c.f. https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/testing_task1_guesses.xlsx). Please, derive: which scenarios are pros and which scenarios are cons for each particular solution-layer? Please, try to answer layer-by-layer! (e.g. EXPT.10***Cell(K27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K27)_new_ color =green<--pros? & cons?)
100000041325
1649676349816496146683Bilegt Gankhuyag173866835617386683561Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Each experiment (EXPT.9, EXPT.10, etc.) contains multiple guesses for different cell references (E27, K27, etc.), with three key attributes:
New Color (e.g., yellow, blue, red)
New Number (e.g., 1, 2, 0)
New Letters (e.g., (a), (b), etc.)

Data entry(EXPT.9):
INSERT INTO Guesses (student_id, experiment_id, layer_id, cell_reference, old_value, new_color, new_number, new_letters, timestamp)
VALUES
(1, 9, 1, 'E27', '?(????)', 'yellow', 1, '(b)', CURRENT_TIMESTAMP),
(1, 9, 1, 'E28', '?(????)', 'blue', 2, '(ad)', CURRENT_TIMESTAMP),
(1, 9, 1, 'E29', '?(????)', 'red', 1, '(c)', CURRENT_TIMESTAMP),
(1, 9, 1, 'E30', '?(????)', 'not-used', 0, '()', CURRENT_TIMESTAMP);
Query to find the "best student"
SELECT student_id, COUNT(*) AS correct_guesses
FROM Evaluations
WHERE correct = 1
GROUP BY student_id
ORDER BY correct_guesses DESC;

retrieving guesses from other experiments:
SELECT * FROM Guesses WHERE experiment_id = 10;(11; etc.)
1000000126808
1649696349816496744100László Pitlik173867281917386728191Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
It would be nice to see an Excel-demo with at least one appropriate pivot-output to demonstrate the power of the suggested (seemingly robust) data-structure...
100000024136
1649706349816496045293Márk Zsigmond Lévai173867324017386732621Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Colour Layer: b is mapped to green while there is no green
Number Layer: Seems valid if numbers indicate stacking height.
Letters Layer: No, d or a appears in the layer

Which solution-layer is incorrect and why?
Colour Layer: unused color green and yellow
Letters Layer: Inconsistent with the number layer.

Correct solution looks something like this:
***
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_colour=yellow
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_colour=blue
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_colour=red
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_colour=not-used
***
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_number=1
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_number=2
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_number=1
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_number=not-used=0
***
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_letters=(b)
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_letters=(a)
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_letters=(c)
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_letters=not-used=(d)
***
100000085953
1649716349816496047139Benjámin Honti173867483917386748391Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Answer is: Not correct, why?

Because
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_colour=green, this is the error, because it should be yellow instead of green.

Correct solution looks like this:

***
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_colour=yellow
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_colour=blue
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_colour=red
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_colour=not-used
***
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_number=1
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_number=2
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_number=1
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_number=not-used=0
***
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_letters=(b)
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_letters=(ad)
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_letters=(c)
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_letters=not-used=()
***
100000053827
1649726349816496147139Benjámin Honti173867514417386753161Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
If we assume that every student can submit unlimited guesses for each experiment, scenario, and solution layer, we need a structured and organized way to store this data. The system should be capable of handling:

1. Multiple students working on the same problem.
2. Multiple attempts per student for each scenario.
3. Different layers of solutions as students refine their understanding.
4. Comparisons between correct and incorrect answers to track learning progress.

Proposed Storage Structure
We can use a database table to store the solutions efficiently. Here is a suggested schema:

Column Name (Description)
Student_ID (Identifies the student who submitted the answer.)
Experiment_ID (The experiment number (e.g., #9, #10, #11, #12).)
Layer_ID (Represents the version of a student’s solution for a given experiment.)
Timestamp (The exact date and time of submission (helps track progress).)
Input_Data (The initial setup of cubes/colors (e.g., a, b, c, d with specific colors).)
Generated_Output_Data (The student's proposed output (e.g., "2(ab), 1(c), 1(d)").)
Correctness_Status (Whether the answer is correct, partially correct, or incorrect.)
Teacher_Feedback (Optional field where teachers can give hints or explanations.)

How This Structure Helps?

1. Allows unlimited guesses – Since each attempt is stored with a unique Layer_ID, students can refine their solutions without overwriting previous attempts.
2. Supports collaboration – If students compare their Generated_Output_Data with peers, they can learn from each other’s mistakes.
3. Provides a learning timeline – With timestamps, we can track whether students improve over time.
4. Facilitates automated evaluation – The system can automatically compare Generated_Output_Data with correct patterns and mark correctness (Correct, Incorrect, Partial).
5. Helps teachers analyze common mistakes – If many students make the same error, the teacher can adjust explanations accordingly.
10000002731673
1649776349816497234004László Pitlik173870284617387028461Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
It would also be nice to see an Excel-demo with at least one appropriate pivot-output to demonstrate the power of the suggested (seemingly robust) data-structure... (Remark: In a final thesis, if texts are integrated into the own documents, but they come from conversations with the ChatGPT/Copilot/etc. - it is always necessary to use quotation signs and the source must also be defined. A plagiat-problem is the last, what somebody do need...
100000071374
1649786349816497134004László Pitlik173870298717387029871Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
If this solution (for scenario #9) will be accepted as a fact (similar to the scenarios #1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8, are we already prepared to solve the problems presented in scenarios #10-11-12?
100000029157
1649806349816495334004László Pitlik173874213817387421381Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Please, try to declare potential rules based on the TESTING_TASK1.XLSX!
Rule#1: Based on the scenarios #4-5-6-7-8: green towers of cubes will consequently be built on the place-id "A".
Rule#i: (your turns in new entries below)
(Based on a lot of these partial rules, we have to derive the "hermeneutic trap" created for your in this task!)
(This task is a kind of magic performance, where your mind will be influenced to think/to see in an irrational way...)
(You have the necessary details to be capable of interpreting the entire system correctly, but one disturbing impulse is present - even in multiply copies...)
1000000102516
1649816349816497847139Benjámin Honti173874958917387497181Tárgy: Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
In the excel file, yellow and green are always in the first place, maybe it's not a coincidence? 
maybe they are related in some way, because then how could you decide what the order will be in #10 #11 #12? 
yellow and green never met before the #10.

In addition, it was written "accidentally" that there is green instead of yellow.
Anyway, my first answer to #9 is what I wrote, but it's going to be more complicated than we think.
100000081352
1649826349816498047139Benjámin Honti173875019317387501931Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
The rules are:

The system is a "Black Box" that produces an output according to specific rules

The columns contain different input values ​​(Inputx) (e.g. a, b, c, d).

The outputs are organized according to certain rules, arranging the colored cubes in towers. (Green and yellow in 1st place, blue in 2nd place and finally red in 3rd place)

Their shape looks like this ?(????), the falling question mark is replaced by how many pieces of the given color are found (if there are more pieces, then by definition there will not be 1 but more than 1, this can also be seen in the robot video, because it stacks the cubes of the same color on top of each other. The question marks in the brackets indicate which letters are assigned to the given color.

And the task is to answer #9 #10 #11 #12 and write something instead of the many question marks.
1000000155690
1649836349816498144100László Pitlik173875370717387537071Tárgy: Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Excellent interpretations!
1000000225
1649846349816498244100László Pitlik173875410117387541011Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Recommendation for this task: the rules should be formulated as simple as possible! Long text streams do not really have a clear structure. The rules are correct formulated, if they can be transformed into source codes by all of you without any comlications (cf. Knuth)...
100000045228
1649886349816495346675Shagai Turtogtokh173876511017387651101Re: Corrupted logistic robot

The general requirement of the black box system in this case is to sort colored blocks into 4 slots (A, B, C, D). Each slot should hold blocks of one color only.

The Problem is happening in scenarios #4, #9–12; the system makes a mistake: it assigns the color green to slot A in the current logic. However, slot A was already assigned to the color yellow in scenario#1

This mix-up (green and yellow in slot A) breaks the rule of “one color per slot.” The system can’t stack blocks correctly because of this conflict.

Example:
In Experiment #2 (Scenario #9), the system mistakenly places a yellow block in slot A. However, in Scenario #5, a green block is placed in the same slot A. This inconsistency causes multiple colors to be stacked in one column, leading to sorting errors.

>>>>The detailed solution for scenarios #9- 12 and the corrected logic on experiment#1 are in the attached EXCEL file.

The issue is that two different colors are being assigned to a single placeholder, which indicates a flaw in the system's logic. This may be due to outdated internal software or a malfunctioning sensor. Additionally, the color recognition algorithm might not be working properly.

Further possible experiments:
By adding more colors and placeholders to give more randomized inputs to test the performance with the correct logic.

Testing color recognition algorithm by real-time monitoring.

Instead of RGB, we can use HSV for multi-dimensional color analysis. In real-life scenarios, it is crucial to identify items without any mistakes In any condition.
10100002591294
1649896349816498834004László Pitlik173877139817387713981Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Excellent focus points can be found in the above-presented interpretation. BUT the offered xlsx-version is still in the hermeneutical trap it means, the solution can not be accepted. The above-listed conclusions are more complex, than the reality is. :-)
Detailed argumentation: GREEN towers may not built everywher, only on the slot/place-id "A": the initial scenarios (#1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8) present clear examples: green cubes must be to slot "A". We do not have other "instruction" and the instructions (rules) MUST BE FOLLOWED: a software do make each step based on predefinied rules. We are searching for such an interpretation for the black-box-system, where EACH previous rule is valid for ever. It is forbidden to create/assume hidden rules, which are given, but the impacts of these hidden rules could still not be observed. More observations/scenarios are not needed to interpret the black box system as a very-very-simple white-box-system. We have however to ignore the very impulse leading to the hermeneutical trapping... The interpretation above did already highlight this sensitive point... :-)
1000000167939
1649906349816498934004László Pitlik173877267617387726761Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Sub-task helping to focus correctly: Which sentence is the most relevant?
here: https://moodle.kodolanyi.hu/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=63498#p164988
100000013133
1649916349816498934004László Pitlik173877277417387727741Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Sub-task helping to focus correctly: Which rules (coming from scenarios #1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 are definitely not followed? here in case of scenarios #10-11-12: https://moodle.kodolanyi.hu/pluginfile.php/444774/mod_forum/attachment/164988/testing_task1_Shagai.xlsx?forcedownload=1
100000022253
1649926349816496046674Boldsukh Ganzorig173878616817387861681Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Basic question answer: Not correct.

WHY?
In Experiment#1, Scenario#9, there is not any green colour in "Input9" column, which makes first solution layer wrong (Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_colour=green).

The correct answer is
***
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_colour=yellow
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_colour=blue
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_colour=red
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_colour=not-used
***
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_number=1
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_number=2
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_number=1
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_number=not-used=0
***
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_letters=(b)
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_letters=(ad)
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_letters=(c)
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_letters=not-used=()
***
100000058869
1649936349816496046677Ganbat Bayanmunkh173878707517387871911Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Basic question answer is incorrect.
why? there is no green.
Experiment#1 Scenario#9
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_colour=yellow
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_colour=blue
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_colour=red
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_colour=not-used
***
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_number=1
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_number=2
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_number=1
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_number=not-used=0
***
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_letters=(b)
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_letters=(ad)
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_letters=(c)
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_letters=not-used=()

Scenario#10
Cell(K27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_colour=yellow
Cell(K28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_colour=green
Cell(K29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_colour=red
Cell(K30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_colour=not-used
***
Cell(K27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_number=1
Cell(K28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_number=2
Cell(K29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_number=1
Cell(K30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_number=not-used=0
***
Cell(K27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_letters=(d)
Cell(K28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_letters=(ab)
Cell(K29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_letters=(c)
Cell(K30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_letters=not-used=()

Scenario#11
Cell(Q27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_colour=yellow
Cell(Q28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_colour=green
Cell(Q29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_colour=red
Cell(Q30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_colour=not-used
***
Cell(Q27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_number=1
Cell(Q28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_number=2
Cell(Q29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_number=1
Cell(Q30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_number=not-used=0
***
Cell(Q27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_letters=(c)
Cell(Q28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_letters=(ad)
Cell(Q29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_letters=(b)
Cell(Q30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_letters=not-used=()

Scenario#12
Cell(W27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_colour=yellow
Cell(W28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_colour=blue
Cell(W29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_colour=green
Cell(W30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_colour=not-used
***
Cell(W27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_number=1
Cell(W28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_number=2
Cell(W29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_number=1
Cell(W30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_number=not-used=0
***
Cell(W27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_letters=(a)
Cell(W28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_letters=(cd)
Cell(W29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_letters=(b)
Cell(W30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_letters=not-used=()
10000001192721
1649946349816496046671Ariunbold Munkhjargal173878817817387881781Re: Corrupted logistic robot

Not correct!

In Scenario #9 (Experiment #1), the input is:

  • a = blue
  • b = yellow
  • c = red
  • d = blue

Since there is no green cube in the input, there is no doubt that green should not appear as the first output in this Scenario. In other words, with no green present, the only possible color for the first output (cell E27) is yellow this time.

The correct solution is:

Color Layer:
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_colour=yellow
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_colour=blue
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_colour=red
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_colour=not-used

Number Layer:
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_number=1
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_number=2
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_number=1
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_number=not-used=0

Letters Layer:
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_letters=(b)
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_letters=(ad)
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_letters=(c)
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_letters=not-used=()

1000000102978
1649956349816499234004László Pitlik173878977017387897701Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Is this scenario (#9) with the above-mentioned correct solution a relevant information unit for the further cases? (scenarios #10-11-12)
100000019118
1649966349816499334004László Pitlik173878999217387899921Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Unfortunately, these solutions for the scenarios #10-11-12 are not acceptable: e.g. because of the 5-times declared rule (see scenarios #4-5-6-7-8): green cubes must definitely be placed to spot "A"! Each rule must be followed in any rate...
100000037205
1649976349816499434004László Pitlik173879014317387901431Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Is this correct-interpreted scenario (#9) helpful for the further (unsolved) scenarios (see #10-11-12)?
10000001391
1649986349816496046668Amin-Erdene Ankhbold173879204817387920481Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Answer for basic question: WRONG

There is no green, instead we have yellow, blue and red colors. According to the other scenarios, when there is no green, yellow takes place A, in this case Cell(E27). So, correct answer would looks like:

Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_colour=yellow
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_colour=blue
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_colour=red
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_colour=not-used
***
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_number=1
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_number=2
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_number=1
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_number=not-used=0
***
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_letters=(b)
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_letters=(a)
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_letters=(c)
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_letters=not-used=(d)
100000067850
1649996349816498946666Battuguldur Tuyatsetseg173879249117387927621Re: Corrupted logistic robot
IF green is exclusive to ID A. Therefore, yellow cannot appear on ID A.

If the first test/scenario
 shows yellow on ID A, it must be an error or an exception that needs to be corrected.

By replacing yellow with green on ID A and assigning yellow to ID D, we ensure that all rules are followed.
100000057237
1650006349816498046668Amin-Erdene Ankhbold173879290717387929071Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Rules based on observation on the TESTING_TASK1.XLSX and logistic robot's demo video:

Rule#1: The robot will pick one cube at a time.
Rule#2: The robot will only pick the cubes in the given order.
Rule#3: Based on the scenarios, GREEN cubes built on place-id "A", BLUE cubes on place-id "B" and RED cubes build on place-id "C".
Rule#4: Based on the scenario #1 and scenario #9 of the experiment #2 tables YELLOW cubes will build a tower on the place-id "A".
100000081377
1650016349816499546674Boldsukh Ganzorig173879318617387931861Re: Corrupted logistic robot
In the rules 4 to 8 scenario, GREEN cube must be placed to spot "A". BLUE cube must be placed to spot "B", RED cube must be placed to spot "C" according to the rule 2 to 8. Each spot already occupied by the cubes except YELLOW cube. Logically, A for GREEN, B for BLUE, C for RED and there is one spot that empty. However, The rule of scenario 1, YELLOW cubes must be on spot "A", if YELLOW cube meet GREEN cube, Rule 1 cannot be followed due to Rule 4-8 scenario. So, if GREEN cube and YELLOW cubes matched, GREEN one MUST be on spot "A" and YELLOW one cannot be on neither "B" nor "C" spots, because of Rule 2-8 scenario they are already occupied by BLUE and RED cubes. Finally there is single spot that empty is "D" and we can put YELLOW cube to the spot "D".

Experiment#1, Scenario#10,11,12 answers according to the rules.

Experiment#1 Scenario#10
Cell(K27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K27)_new_colour=green
Cell(K28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K28)_new_colour=not-used
Cell(K29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K29)_new_colour=red
Cell(K30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K30)_new_colour=yellow
***
Cell(K27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K27)_new_number=2
Cell(K28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K28)_new_number=not-used=0
Cell(K29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K29)_new_number=1
Cell(K30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K30)_new_number=1
***
Cell(K27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K27)_new_letters=(ab)
Cell(K28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K28)_new_letters=not-used=()
Cell(K29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K29)_new_letters=(c)
Cell(K30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K30)_new_letters=(d)
***
Scenario#11
***
Cell(Q27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q27)_new_colour=green
Cell(Q28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q28)_new_colour=not-used
Cell(Q29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q29)_new_colour=red
Cell(Q30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q30)_new_colour=yellow
***
Cell(Q27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q27)_new_number=2
Cell(Q28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q28)_new_number=not-used=0
Cell(Q29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q29)_new_number=1
Cell(Q30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q30)_new_number=1
***
Cell(Q27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q27)_new_letters=(ad)
Cell(Q28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q28)_new_letters=not-used=()
Cell(Q29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q29)_new_letters=(b)
Cell(Q30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q30)_new_letters=(c)
***
Scenario#12
***
Cell(W27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W27)_new_colour=green
Cell(W28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W28)_new_colour=blue
Cell(W29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W29)_new_colour=not-used
Cell(W30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W30)_new_colour=yellow
***
Cell(W27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W27)_new_number=1
Cell(W28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W28)_new_number=2
Cell(W29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W29)_new_number=not-used=0
Cell(W30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W30)_new_number=1
***
Cell(W27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W27)_new_letters=(b)
Cell(W28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W28)_new_letters=(cd)
Cell(W29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W29)_new_letters=not-used=()
Cell(W30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W30)_new_letters=(a)
***
10000002472689
1650026349816499946666Battuguldur Tuyatsetseg173879352817387940051Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Green is exclusive to ID A for smaller towers (1-3 cubes).

Yellow is exclusive to ID A for larger towers (4 cubes) when all inputs are the same color.

This means:

If the input cubes are different colors, the system builds smaller towers, and green is used for ID A.

If the input cubes are the same color, the system builds larger towers, and yellow is used for ID A.

Since IDs can only have one colored tower at a time, the system must choose between green and yellow based on the input colors.

If the inputs are different colors, use green for ID A.

If the inputs are the same color, use yellow for ID A.

Or yellow is on ID A if there no green in input :-)

1000000130528
1650036349816500046668Amin-Erdene Ankhbold173879358317387935831Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot

Based on the above rules that I have drawn from my observations, I solved the scenarios #10, #11 and #12

10100002085
1650046349816499646677Ganbat Bayanmunkh173879415717387941571Re: Corrupted logistic robot
So, If yellow and green must be placed to spot "A" for example experiment#1 scenario1-8 and experiment#2 scenario 1-8, So both of them must be placed to spot "A". Can we stack green and yellow on spot "A", according to the rules it does not break any rules, there is not rules about 2 different colors cannot stack on each other.
Scenario#10
Cell(K27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_colour=green,yellow
Cell(K28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_colour=not-used
Cell(K29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_colour=red
Cell(K30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_colour=not-used
***
Cell(K27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_number=3
Cell(K28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_number=not-used=0
Cell(K29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_number=1
Cell(K30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_number=not-used=0
***
Cell(K27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_letters=(acd)
Cell(K28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_letters=not-used=()
Cell(K29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_letters=(c)
Cell(K30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_letters=not-used=()

Scenario#11
Cell(Q27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_colour=green,yellow
Cell(Q28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_colour=not-used
Cell(Q29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_colour=red
Cell(Q30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_colour=not-used
***
Cell(Q27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_number=3
Cell(Q28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_number=not-used=0
Cell(Q29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_number=1
Cell(Q30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_number=not-used=0
***
Cell(Q27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_letters=(acd)
Cell(Q28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_letters=not-used=()
Cell(Q29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_letters=(b)
Cell(Q30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_letters=not-used=()

Scenario#12
Cell(W27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_colour=yellow,green
Cell(W28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_colour=blue
Cell(W29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_colour=not-used
Cell(W30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_colour=not-used
***
Cell(W27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_number=2
Cell(W28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_number=2
Cell(W29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_number=not-used=0
Cell(W30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_number=not-used=0
***
Cell(W27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_letters=(ab)
Cell(W28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_letters=(cd)
Cell(W29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_letters=not-used=()
Cell(W30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_letters=not-used=()
10000001422346
1650056349816496046680Zandangarav Nyambaatar173879443717387944371Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
It is correct except for the first row. We don't have a green cube, so green which is in the first row should be replaced with yellow.

Cell(E27)_old_all = ? (????) <-- Cell(E27)_new_color = yellow
Cell(E28)_old_all = ? (????) <-- Cell(E28)_new_color = blue
Cell(E29)_old_all = ? (????) <-- Cell(E29)_new_color = red
Cell(E30)_old_all = ? (????) <-- Cell(E30)_new_color = not used.
100000060321
1650066349816499834004László Pitlik173882448417388244841Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_letters=not-used=(d) <--Why is this particular definition wrong? Please, deliver argumentations based on the entire documentation here!
100000017162
1650076349816499934004László Pitlik173882483117388248311Re: Corrupted logistic robot
IF green is exclusive to ID A. Therefore, yellow cannot appear on ID A.<--this declaration is wrong, if each scenario (#1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8) and its results should be accepted for ever! Yellow cubes do appear in ID A (see scenario #1). <--There is no error, there is no exception! The facts (scenarios #1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8) must be accepted as facts. The ancient and unfortunatelly the modern "science" try to interpret the world so, that a lot of facts are excluded in order to have a nive therory... :-) But this process is not to follow in general...
100000093453
1650086349816500034004László Pitlik173882662117388266211Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Rule#1-2 = logistic rule and not a logical rule about the process logic behing the logistic...
Rule#3 = it is more rules parallel: #3a for green cubes, #3b for blue cubes, #3c for red cubes, BUT the #3b and #3c are more strong than #3a! Why? Please, use the mirroring technique: the opposite declaration should also be interpreted (e.g. there are positive scenarios for #3b and there is no scenario with opposite conclusions/risk potentials)...
(Experiment #2 is in this moment quasi still not existing:-)
100000084422
1650106349816500334004László Pitlik173882719717388271971Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
https://moodle.kodolanyi.hu/pluginfile.php/444774/mod_forum/attachment/165003/testing_task1%20-%20Amin-Erdene.xlsx?forcedownload=1 <--WOW!
+
https://moodle.kodolanyi.hu/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=63498#p164988 <-- see first sentence (Each slot should hold blocks of one color only.)<--Important declarion - but true or wrong compared of the above-highlighted WOW-XLSX?
Who is finally capable of seeing the expected complexity with the expected clarity?!
What is the hermeneutical trap in the definition of this task (see: https://moodle.kodolanyi.hu/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=63498#p164960)
(((BTW: such kind of logical constructions will later be necessary, when you are writing the final thesis, especially the chapter about the literature behind your thesis-title...)))
100000080688
1650116349816500134004László Pitlik173882747217388274721Re: Corrupted logistic robot
if YELLOW cube meet GREEN cube, Rule 1 cannot be followed due to Rule 4-8 scenario. <-- wrong association (wrong solutions for #10-11-12). See: https://moodle.kodolanyi.hu/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=63498#p165010
The rule of the scenario#1 must be followed for ever...
100000035231
1650126349816500234004László Pitlik173882775117388277511Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Interesting approach: but it can not be accepted! The robot does not have any information units about ALL cubes before starting with the tower-building-process! The count of the cubes having the same colour is an information unit, but never existing in this system - we observers can interpret such a phenonemon (count) - later (after closing a scenario). The robot will never know, how many cubes will still be set into the process and/or when is a process closed at all... :-)
100000082397
1650136349816500434004László Pitlik173882786017388278601Re: Corrupted logistic robot
So, If yellow and green must be placed to spot "A" for example experiment#1 scenario1-8 and experiment#2 scenario 1-8, So both of them must be placed to spot "A". Can we stack green and yellow on spot "A", according to the rules it does not break any rules, there is not rules about 2 different colors cannot stack on each other. <--WOW (still see: https://moodle.kodolanyi.hu/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=63498#p165010)
100000065351
1650146349816500534004László Pitlik173882801817388280181Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
It is worth to read all previous entries! :-)
Especially: https://moodle.kodolanyi.hu/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=63498#p165013
Go, please, from this link backward!
100000017144
1650156349816498447139Benjámin Honti173883176117388317611Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
The system takes input values (e.g., a, b, c, d) and determines the number and color of the cubes.

The output is organized into towers, following a fixed color order:
1st place: Green and Yellow cubes
2nd place: Blue cubes
3rd place: Red cubes

The output format is ?(????), where:
The "?" is replaced by the number of cubes of that color.
The brackets contain the corresponding input values for that color.

If there are multiple cubes of the same color, they are stacked on top of each other (e.g., if there are 2 green cubes, the first place will show "2Green").
1000000102462
1650166349816501534004László Pitlik173883336817388333681Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
What is the conclusion based on these declarations concerning the scenarios #10-11-12! The KNUTH-principle says: knowledge/science is, what can be transformed/transferred/translated/transscripted into source codes = what can be used for operative steps in an objective/consistent/consequent way...
100000036262
1650186349816500347139Benjámin Honti173883366517388336651Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
This is very good!
1000000415
1650196349816501834004László Pitlik173883483817388348381Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Please, always try to use the "very-good-materials" for the next step of the concluding process...
10000001584
1650206349816496034004László Pitlik173884826317388482631Re: Corrupted logistic robot
New task: please, try to create a rel. small, but complex prompt for the ChatGPT and/or Copilot, etc. in order to involve it into this project. This task has two layers: what is a good prompt? Parallel: how good is the interpretation potential of ChatGPT/Copilot/etc. - in caseof a good prompt!
100000051244
1650216349816501146674Boldsukh Ganzorig173885665917388566591Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
According to all scenario rules, there is not any rules about not stacking different color. It seems bit tricky but, in logically, robot can put one cube in the spot at time in order. So, in scenario 10, green block must be on the spot A firstly twice before the yellow one. In scenario 11, green, yellow and green again in order. In the scenario 12, green one is placed after yellow in order.

Here are the correct answers following all the rules in scenario 1 to 8.

Experiment#1, Scenario#10,11,12 answers according to the rules.

Experiment#1 Scenario#10
Cell(K27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K27)_new_colour=green, yellow
Cell(K28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K28)_new_colour=not-used
Cell(K29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K29)_new_colour=red
Cell(K30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K30)_new_colour=not used
***
Cell(K27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K27)_new_number=3
Cell(K28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K28)_new_number=not-used=0
Cell(K29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K29)_new_number=1
Cell(K30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K30)_new_number=not-used=0
***
Cell(K27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K27)_new_letters=(abd)
Cell(K28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K28)_new_letters=not-used=()
Cell(K29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K29)_new_letters=(c)
Cell(K30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(K30)_new_letters=not-used=()
***
Scenario#11
***
Cell(Q27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q27)_new_colour=green, yellow
Cell(Q28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q28)_new_colour=not-used
Cell(Q29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q29)_new_colour=red
Cell(Q30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q30)_new_colour=not-used
***
Cell(Q27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q27)_new_number=3
Cell(Q28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q28)_new_number=not-used=0
Cell(Q29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q29)_new_number=1
Cell(Q30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q30)_new_number=not-used=0
***
Cell(Q27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q27)_new_letters=(acd)
Cell(Q28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q28)_new_letters=not-used=()
Cell(Q29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q29)_new_letters=(b)
Cell(Q30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(Q30)_new_letters=not-used=()
***
Scenario#12
***
Cell(W27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W27)_new_colour=yellow, green
Cell(W28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W28)_new_colour=blue
Cell(W29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W29)_new_colour=not-used
Cell(W30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W30)_new_colour=not-used
***
Cell(W27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W27)_new_number=2
Cell(W28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W28)_new_number=2
Cell(W29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W29)_new_number=not-used=0
Cell(W30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W30)_new_number=not-used=0
***
Cell(W27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W27)_new_letters=(ab)
Cell(W28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W28)_new_letters=(cd)
Cell(W29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W29)_new_letters=not-used=()
Cell(W30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(W30)_new_letters=not-used=()
***
10000001862539
1650226349816502134004László Pitlik173885786017388578601Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
WOW! What can we identify as hermeneutical trap in the definition of this entire task? Why are a lot of wrong solutions/interpretations? How should have been formulated this task as such in order to minimize the misunderstanding potential of this task?
100000041212
1650236349816502246675Shagai Turtogtokh173886268517388626851Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
We assumed each slot could hold only one color, ignoring the possibility of stacking. This is a hermeneutical trap a thinking error where our biases (like assuming "one color, one slot") blind us to simpler logic. The robot logic worked correctly; the problem was our false interpretation.
Hermeneutical traps happen when we force our beliefs onto situations instead of seeking the real explanation.

I can see/experience that biases distort understanding. Always test assumptions against evidence.

to minimize the potential misunderstanding of this task, we can state the rules explicitly.
e.g. Multiple colors can occupy the same slot.
100000097540
1650246349816496046682Yaruu-Aldar Enkhtur173886369617388636961Re: Corrupted logistic robot
The basic question answer is: Incorrect.

Reason:
In Experiment #1, Scenario #9, there is no green color present in the "Input9" column. This means that the first solution layer is incorrect, specifically:
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) ← Cell(E27)_new_colour=green.

The correct answer:
***
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_colour=yellow
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_colour=blue
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_colour=red
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_colour=not-used
***
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_number=1
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_number=2
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_number=1
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_number=not-used=0
***
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_letters=(b)
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_letters=(ad)
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_letters=(c)
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_letters=not-used=()
***
100000066902
1650256349816495346671Ariunbold Munkhjargal173886447217388644721Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Summary of the Rules (IN031: Corrupted logistic robot | KJE Moodle + IN031: Corrupted logistic robot | KJE Moodle)

  • Logistic Rules:

    1. The robot picks one cube at a time.
    2. The robot processes cubes in their given order on the conveyor belt.
  • Color (Logical) Rules:
    3. Color Assignment (Parallel):

    • GREEN cubes → place-id "A" (Rule #3a)
    • BLUE cubes → place-id "B" (Rule #3b, stronger)
    • RED cubes → place-id "C" (Rule #3c, stronger)
      The mirroring technique confirms that deviations from the blue and red assignments would lead to risk scenarios that are not observed.
    1. Exception for YELLOW Cubes:
      • When there is no green input, YELLOW cubes are built in place-id "A" (as observed in Scenario #1 and Scenario #9).
The assumption that each slot should contain only one color is false. In earlier scenarios, it seemed true, but in Scenario #12, multiple colors appear in the same slot.

This reveals the hermeneutical trap—we assumed a more complex rule than necessary. The correct rule is that green always goes to slot A if present, and the other colors shift accordingly. Towers are not strictly limited to one color per slot; multiple towers can appear in the same slot when needed. (IN031: Corrupted logistic robot | KJE Moodle

10100002041015
1650276349816502334004László Pitlik173886598317388659831Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Exact interpretation! Parallel: the robot does not have information about more than 3 colours (red, blue, green), AND for each undefinied colour-code, slot A is dedicated! Congratulation! Project is closed! :-)
100000031180
1650286349816502434004László Pitlik173886602717388660271Re: Corrupted logistic robot
FYI: https://moodle.kodolanyi.hu/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=63498#p165023
1000000269
1650296349816502534004László Pitlik173886609617388660961Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Please, compare your solution with this one: https://moodle.kodolanyi.hu/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=63498#p165023
10000008103
1650336349816496046681Amgalanbaatar Amarsanaa173886672217388667901Re: Corrupted logistic robot

The first solution layer (Colours) is incorrect because:

  • In Experiment #1, Scenario #9, there is no green colour present in the "Input9" column.
  • This means the assignment:
    Cell(E27)_new_colour = green is incorrect.

Solution

Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <-- Cell(E27)_new_colour=yellow  
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <-- Cell(E28)_new_colour=blue  
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <-- Cell(E29)_new_colour=red  
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <-- Cell(E30)_new_colour=not-used  

Numbers

CCell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <-- Cell(E27)_new_number=1  
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <-- Cell(E28)_new_number=2  
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <-- Cell(E29)_new_number=1  
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <-- Cell(E30)_new_number=not-used=0  

Letters

Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <-- Cell(E27)_new_letters=(b)  

Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <-- Cell(E28)_new_letters=(ad)  

Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <-- Cell(E29)_new_letters=(c)  

Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <-- Cell(E30)_new_letters=not-used=() 

Final Answer:
The first solution layer (colours) was incorrect due to the green value. The correct assignment should be yellow instead. Numbers and letters layers were correct. 

1010000991027
1650346349816503334004László Pitlik173886777917388677791Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Please, follow the closing interpretations here: https://moodle.kodolanyi.hu/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=63498#p165023
10000007108
1650356349816496046678Nurbol Byekbolat173888047217388804721Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Not correct ,this error happened because it is yellow instead of green (Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_colour=green).

Correct anwser:
***
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_colour=yellow
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_colour=blue
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_colour=red
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_colour=not-used
***
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_number=1
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_number=2
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_number=1
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_number=not-used=0
***
Cell(E27)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E27)_new_letters=(b)
Cell(E28)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E28)_new_letters=(ad)
Cell(E29)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E29)_new_letters=(c)
Cell(E30)_old_all=?(????) <--Cell(E30)_new_letters=not-used=()
***
100000044789
1650366349816503534004László Pitlik173890800817389080081Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Do/Did we need the information units from the experiment#2 in order to derive the hermeneutical trap as such? Which experiment (#1 or #2) has more (relevant) information units if at all?
100000031156
1650446349816503646680Zandangarav Nyambaatar173904588217390458821Tárgy: Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
Experiment #2 contains more relevant information units compared to Experiment #1. In Experiment #1, the colors green, red, and blue follow a known order, while yellow is the unknown variable. Yellow could appear first, between any of the other colors, or last. However, in Experiment #2, yellow is clearly placed first in input 9, which provides a more definite and relevant piece of information.
100000064333
1650456349816496145293Márk Zsigmond Lévai173905192417390519241Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
I would use a database structure with separate tables for students, experiments, solution layers, student solutions, and evaluations. This setup would allow for unlimited guesses per student per layer. In Excel, I would use pivot tables to analyze total scores, the number of guesses, and the best guesses per student. This structure would support detailed evaluation and help rank students based on performance and correctness.

This is my answer to experiment # 1 EXP 9-12 and experiment # 2 9-12
Please let me know if there's anything I’m missing or if I’ve made any errors in my approach.
101000098494
1650466349816496334004László Pitlik173906514817390651481Re: Tárgy: Corrupted logistic robot
Please, try to interpret the enteri communication - especialy this one: https://moodle.kodolanyi.hu/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=63498#p165027
100000012126
1650476349816504534004László Pitlik173906536917390653691Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_cubes_logic/testing_task1_solutions.xlsx <--please, compare your solution with this one. Question: can we define a structure for storing unlimized guesses WITHOUT clarifying the final visualisation for the common accepted solutions for scenarios #10-11-12?
100000031263
1650486349816502734004László Pitlik173906545717390654571Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_cubes_logic/testing_task1_solutions.xlsx <-- worth interpreting in order to derive the final structure for storing unlimited guesses!
100000015156
1650656349816496146675Shagai Turtogtokh173931728317393172831Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
A demo structure for storing unlimited guesses in cases where all student, experiment, scenario, place ID, and layers can be found in the attached EXCEL file.

Please let me know if there are any suggestions for improving its efficiency.
101000039198
1650666349816506534004László Pitlik173933453817393354761Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
The structuring as such is not the direct problem (although we are seraching for the appropriate storing-structure - but the appropriate structure is not a technical phenomenon rather a way e.g. to suspicion interpretation): we are searching for a storing structure where the reports can be interpreted in a useful way. Selected records are not the expected reports in general. The so-called cross-tabs (in Excel: pivots) create from the selected raw records a multidimensional report with appropriate report-structures (row-headers, column-headers, aggregation-rules, etc.). But selected (raw) records as such can be interesting IF THE INTERPRETATION RULES FOR THEM ARE GIVEN! Therefore: the develpment steps are in ranked form: 0. Suspicion/hypothesis --> 1. interpretation rules --> 2. needed e.g. pivot-structure (output) ---> 3. storing strucutre (input). The file "guesses_demo.xlsx" presents steps 3. and 2. (if the selected raw records are accepted as reports) but these reports cover no planned needs (c.f. step 0), therefore there are no interpretation rules given to explain, whether a suspicion/hypothesis is wrong or true?! Demo: Suspicion = The wrong guesses are using more the 3 slots! Rule: If the count of the affected slots in case of a given (or each) Student is more than 3 for all scenarios (#1-12), than the solution must be wrong! Report: row-header(s): Student-ID(s), Column-headers: Slot-IDs, cells = count of guesses concerning the slots, Filter: All scenarios. Expectation: the Slot-ID=D may never exit in the reports in case of Students having the expected solution about the hermeneutical trap! (Parallel demo: https://moodle.kodolanyi.hu/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=63498#p165068)
10000002491459
1650676349816506634004László Pitlik173933462917393346291Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
This parallel task about the storing structure should have been a kind of hint helping to identify the hermeneutical trap (see: PARALLEL task:-)
100000023122
1650686349816496134004László Pitlik173933544517393358571Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
This (https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_cubes_logic/summary_report_20250212-0535.xlsx) is the most recent information package about the activities of the affected Students: the well-known question is, WHO IS THE BEST? c.f. https://moodle.kodolanyi.hu/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=63498#p165066 (Suspicion = Can we evauate EACH Student with the same evaluation index? / Interpretation rule = IF the COCO Y0-model does deliver for each Student the same norm value of 1000, THEN the suspicion/hypothesis is true / Needed report: OAM (<--identical with this XLSX = https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_cubes_logic/summary_report_20250212-0535.xlsx - where objects = Students, attributes = statistical phenomena with appropriate DIRECTION for a ranked OAM as direct input for COCO-Y0)... Direction demo: e.g. the more is the Number of discussions posted and/or the Number of replies posted and/or the Number of attachments and/or the Number of views and/or the Word count and/or the Character count THE BETTER is the performance + the younger the Earliest post THE BETTER is the performance + the later the Most recent post THE BETTER is the performance... 
More: https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_cubes_logic/?C=M;O=D - e.g. Which kind of new attributes could we define with which direction to improve the derivation of the BEST STUDENT based on this structure: https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_cubes_logic/discussion.html
10000001831243
1650736349816496146671Ariunbold Munkhjargal173937242717393724271Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
I have prepared an Excel demo file that organizes student guesses in a structured format and includes a pivot table for analysis.

The pivot table summarizes student attempts for each cell reference.
Rows: Student_ID
Columns: Cell_Reference (E27, E28, etc.)
Values: Count of correct attempts per cell.
The "Overall Correct?" column indicates whether the latest valid attempt matches the expected solution.
This allows for easy evaluation of students' progress while tracking multiple guesses. Let me know if any adjustments are needed.
101000080455
1650746349816507334004László Pitlik173937606417393760641Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_cubes_logic/guessing_demo.xlsx - Please, see the yellow sheet and the yellow cell! The interpretation as such seems to be smart! :-) But the pivot-table presents 2 counts in the yellow cell and one of them is a green-value in the background. If all two raw data are green-values, then the count=2-status is also given - and the monitoring effect does become irrational?! Excel-pivots can be defined with filters, where the expected rules might probably be enforced?!
100000075429
1650776349816507446671Ariunbold Munkhjargal173939560717393956071Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot

I have updated my Excel demo. Here’s a summary of the changes I made:

  1. Filtering Incorrect Attempts:

    • I added a new column called Is_Correct in the raw_data sheet. This column flags an attempt as “Yes” only if the New_Color exactly matches the expected value for the corresponding cell (for example, for E27 the expected color is “yellow”, for E28 “blue”, for E29 “red”, and for E30 “not-used”).
    • This ensures that if a student submits an incorrect guess (e.g., “green” for E27), it is marked “No” and will not be counted in the pivot table.
  2. Refined Pivot Table:

    • In the pivot table, I now aggregate only those rows where Is_Correct is “Yes”.
    • Additionally, I added an Overall Correct? column that indicates “Yes” only if the student has at least one correct attempt for each of the required cells (E27, E28, E29, and E30).
    • This change prevents the irrational monitoring effect where an incorrect (green) value might inflate the count.
  3. Unlimited Guesses:

    • Each guess is stored as a separate record with a unique Attempt_Number, so the system can handle unlimited guesses without overwriting previous attempts. This allows for a complete analysis of the students’ progression toward the correct solution.

10100001971001
1650786349816496146674Boldsukh Ganzorig173939873917393992321Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot

As you said, 

"We are waiting for an Excel-demo with real or realistic data AND first of all with at least a meaningful pivot-output, where we have rules for relevant interpretations concerning this output." 

I just tried to figure out how we could store all this data, allowing for unlimited potential guesses per student, in the DEMO.xlsx file using a Pivot Table to create a simple output. I believe all necessary explanations are included in the attached file.

101000078388
1650866349816507834004László Pitlik173944845817394484581Re: Tárgy: Re: Corrupted logistic robot
https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_cubes_logic/DEMO.xlsx <--the filtered approaches could already be useful, but the prepared report seems to be still not matured enough? (see: https://moodle.kodolanyi.hu/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=63498#p165066)
100000021225
16515063566034004László Pitlik174012454517401254891Neptun anomalies in mobile phonesDemo: https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_neptun_tests/neptun_testing_mobile_phones.docx
Task: Please, try to find new anomalies and please, create new entries with the expected data (text) and with appropriate evidence-units (e.g. screenshots)! Each Student have to detect at least one single suspicion. 
Forbidden interpretations: it is forbidden to write about potential useful (still not given) Neptun-functionalities.  It is forbidden to write about empty bubbles, it means: about possibilities without any concrete/exactly defined/reproducible parameters. Screenshots can be accepted as exact, reproducible log-data. 
Quality assurance: A suspicion can be seen as validated, if the screenshot in the mobile-phone-version and the screenshot in the laptop-version are different and this difference is to present in a trivial way (see/use e.g. red marks in the demo-docx-version in both screenshots).
GDPR/IT-security-aspects: Please, always work in an anonymized modus!
More details: https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_neptun_tests/?C=M;O=D

1000000128922
1651516356616515034004László Pitlik174012611017401261101Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
Important notice: Please, try to be very precise concerning the expected (see demo-docx) descriptive details in your case(s). Please, do not forget: standardised communication among IT-experts is not a pain, it is a honour! (c.f. previous email-communications based e.g. on a well-defined email-subject & with empty email-body, etc.)
100000048286
1651526356616515034004László Pitlik174012664017401266401Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
Important notice: The same level of the reproducibility, evidence-presence, detailedness, operativity should be achieved in case of your own final-thesis-automation-challenges - still in this semester! The most robust enemies of a final thesis are the empty-bubbles (c.f. communication anomalies in ChatGPT/Copilot - long gossips without any real contents). ChatGPT/Copilt can however be used as expected: https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/319/itsec_index_for_home_workers.docx / Human text-creation is always a kind of risk concerning empty-bubble-anomalies: https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/319/itsec_index_for_home_workers2.docx / Please, be extremly careful - the subject of software testing should be helpful to find the appropriate mind set, to train the needed focusing!
100000093670
1651606356616515034004László Pitlik174015757217401575721Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
Further 2 anomalies are already integrated into the basic document: https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_neptun_tests/neptun_testing_mobile_phones.docx
100000011141
1651616356616516034004László Pitlik174017108717401710871Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
Status: 7 anomalies are already integrated into the basic document: https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_neptun_tests/neptun_testing_mobile_phones.docx
100000011141
1651626356616515034004László Pitlik174020002917402002341Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
Relevant questions (to https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_neptun_tests/neptun_testing_mobile_phones.docx): 
  • Is the descriptive structure of the case-studies complete? 
  • Which new aspect is already detected? 
  • Is still further new aspects possible?
  • How should we integrate the new aspect(s)? (What we exactly have to do?)
100000037284
1651636356616516134004László Pitlik174020011217402010201Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
Status: already 11 case-study-elements (in https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_neptun_tests/neptun_testing_mobile_phones.docx)
10000006122
1651646356616515034004László Pitlik174020039017402003901Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
A new task is from now on to solve: Please, try to interpret the last chapter (conclusions), and please, try to formulate further analytical aspects! (see: https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_neptun_tests/neptun_testing_mobile_phones.docxÖ
100000027214
1651836356616515034004László Pitlik174036788617403678861Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
TASK: In order to derive conclusions in a carefully planned way, we always need an OAM where the objects (row-headers) are the cases (#1-#16), and the attributes (column-headers) are all of the characteristics which can be interpreted in case of all objects (incl. measurement unit). (In ideal case, this OAM is already coming from a database in form of a query (see e.g. pivot table). Please, define first of all the potential attributes - in ideal case each Student may define at least one (own) attribute (useful for ALL cases in this document: https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_neptun_tests/neptun_testing_mobile_phones.docx). The definition should be written here... The recommended/suggested definition will be consolidated BEFORE the appropriate data for the OAM will be "measured" (derived)... Deadline: 2025.II.26.-24.00
1000000119714
1651846356616518346683Bilegt Gankhuyag174038409017403840901Tárgy: Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
Below is my proposed list of attributes for the OAM. These attributes cover details for each case and can be interpreted across all entries:

Case ID
identifiers (e.g. #1, #2, ..., #16)

Test Date
date when the anomaly was recorded (format: DD.MM.YYYY)

Phone Details
brand, model, OS version, and build number

User Role
role of the user (student or teacher)

Test URL
URL where the test was performed.

Anomaly Type
classification (e.g. UI inconsistency, missing element, redirect error)

Anomaly Description
Brief summary of the observed issue
100000086454
1651856356616518434004László Pitlik174038656417403865641Re: Tárgy: Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
(Case#ID = objectID)
Attribute#1: test date (O.K.)
Attribute#2a: phone-brand
Attribute#2b: phone-model
Attribute#2c: phone-OSversion
Attribute#2d: phone-buildnumber
Attribute#3: Role (O.K.)
Attribute#4a: URL-level1: https://neptun.kodolanyi.hu/
Attribute#4b: URL-level2: https://neptun.kodolanyi.hu/Hallgato_NG/
Attribute#4c: URL-level3: https://neptun.kodolanyi.hu/Hallgato_NG/dashboard
Attribute#4d: URL-level4: ...
Attribute#5: Type1 (we need a definitive option-value-list: UI, missing element, redirect error, ..., conceptual parameter<>error, ...)
(a summary with free texts is too abstract to use as an attribute)
Attribute#6: Type2 (dynamic or static <-- it means: the evidence units can be presented as screenshots = static or the evidence units should be presented as mp4 = dynamic user experience)
Attribute#7: Type3 (login needed or login not-needed)
Attribute#8: Type4 (landscape mode = fixing problem: YES or NO)
Attribute#9: ???
1000000109835
1651866356616518345293Márk Zsigmond Lévai174039875017403987501Tárgy: Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
Here’s a suggested way to set up the attributes:

Case ID – Identifier (e.g., #1, #2, ..., #16)
Attribute #1: Test Date – (format: DD.MM.YYYY)
Attribute #2: Phone Brand –
Attribute #3: Phone Model –
Attribute #4: Phone OS Version – Operating system version (e.g., Android 12, iOS 16)
Attribute #5: Phone Build Number – OS build version
Attribute #6: User Role – Role of the user (Student/Teacher) „Are you a student?” (Yes/No)
Attribute #7: Authentication Requirement – Login needed (Yes/No)
Attribute #8: Anomaly Type – Classification (e.g., UI inconsistency, missing element, redirect error etc...)
Attribute #9: Anomaly Evidence Type – Dynamic (requires video) or Static (can be captured via screenshots)
Attribute #10: Landscape Mode Fixing Issue – Does switching to landscape mode resolve the problem? (Yes/No)
Attribute #11: Severity Level – Impact of the issue (Low, Medium, High, Critical)
Attribute #12: Browser Used –
Attribute #13: Network Condition – Connection type (Wi-Fi, mobile data, offline mode)
1000000143856
1651876356616518634004László Pitlik174041861417404186141Re: Tárgy: Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
Severity level: is this an objective information (log-based) or a subjective estimation?
Network Condition – Connection type (Wi-Fi, mobile data, offline mode): Do we really have the log-data for this attribute?
100000030181
1651886356616518347139Benjámin Honti174041971117404197111Tárgy: Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
Proposed Attributes for the OAM
(Based on the analysis of the given document, the following attributes are considered useful and applicable to all cases.)

Device type (Text: brand + model)
Release year (Year: yyyy)
Display size (Inches: “)
Display technology (Text: e.g., LCD, OLED, AMOLED)
Resolution (Pixels: width × height)
Processor type (Text: e.g., Qualcomm Snapdragon 8 Gen 2, Apple A17 Bionic, etc.)
Number of processor cores (Integer: count)
RAM size (GB: gigabytes)
Internal storage (GB: gigabytes)
Expandable storage support (microSD card) (Yes/No)
Operating system (Text: e.g., Android 14, iOS 17, HarmonyOS, etc.)
Battery capacity (mAh: milliampere-hour)
Wireless charging support (Yes/No)
Fast charging support (Yes/No, or specified in watts)
Main camera resolution (MP: megapixels)
Secondary (selfie) camera resolution (MP: megapixels)
Maximum video resolution (e.g., 4K@60fps, 1080p@30fps, etc.)
5G support (Yes/No)
Wi-Fi version (e.g., Wi-Fi 5, Wi-Fi 6, Wi-Fi 6E, etc.)
Bluetooth version (e.g., 4.2, 5.0, 5.3, etc.)
Water resistance rating (IP level: e.g., IP68, IP67, etc.)
Weight (g: grams)
Dimensions (H × W × D) (mm: millimeters)
Price (in the specified currency) (e.g., USD, EUR, HUF, etc.)
Display refresh rate (Hz: hertz)
Reason: In modern smartphones, the display refresh rate (e.g., 60Hz, 90Hz, 120Hz, 144Hz, etc.) plays an important role in user experience, particularly in gaming and smooth scrolling.

These attributes are applicable to all mobile phones in the dataset and can help in making meaningful comparisons and analyses.
10000002291329
1651896356616518834004László Pitlik174042129017404212901Re: Tárgy: Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
The task is a practical challenge: we have cases with very limited content units. The above listed possibilities are theoretically interesting, but we will finally need a real OAM! A real OAM has in all of the definied row*column-position existing data! On the other hand: e.g. the weight might never play any role in such a testing challenge...
100000058288
1651906356616518346673Namjiljav Tsetsegsuren174042213417404221341Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
here is my proposed potential attributes for OAM.

1-Device Brand & Model

2-Operating System & Version

3-Browser Used

4-Neptun Page/Module Accessed

5-Anomaly Type

6-Error Consistency

7-Network Type

8-Screen Resolution

9-User Role in Neptun

10-Screenshot Evidence Available

11-Affected Functions

12-Cache/Cookies Cleared Before Testing
100000042292
1651916356616518745293Márk Zsigmond Lévai174042738517404273851Tárgy: Re: Tárgy: Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
Severity Level is more of a subjective estimation because testers decide how serious the problem is.
It depends. If the app records network changes, then yes, it's log-based. But if testers just write it down, it might not be accurate. We need to check if the data is actually logged.
100000050235
1651926356616519034004László Pitlik174042760217404276021Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
&-sign is a structural error: one particular OAM-cell does always need one single content-unit!
Parallel: Even good ideas (c.f. Cache/Cookies Cleared Before Testing) are later usless - although each case could be reproduced and some new attributes could also be observed, and stored....
100000043244
1651936356616518834004László Pitlik174042883617404288361Re: Tárgy: Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
The operative task was simple: we had to define EXISTING CONTENTS of the cases as attributes. The solutions deliver a lot of good ideas, but these ideas enforce the reproduction all 16 cases! The reproduction does affect all authors. Therefore: ideas could only be important AFTER the real task is solved!
100000051255
1651966356616518346677Ganbat Bayanmunkh174049369117404936911Tárgy: Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
Case ID
Test Day - the day of anomaly found
User Role
Device OS Type - Android or iOS device used.
URL Category -Neptun page type affected.
Anomaly Type -Kind of mobile issue found.
Severity Score -How bad the problem is.
Landscape Fix -Landscape mode fixes issue?
Workaround Exists- Temporary fix available or not.
100000054262
1651976356616519634004László Pitlik174049600317404960031Re: Tárgy: Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
"Severity Score": subjective evaluation are for IT-experts rather risky than needed... On the other hand: the level of severity should be derivable! A new final study could be initialized for this kind of AI-based modelling challenge...
100000036201
1651986356616518346681Amgalanbaatar Amarsanaa174049612817404961281Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
OAM Attributes
1.Test URL (Text, e.g., "https://example.com/login") – Identifies the web app being tested.
2.Test Date & Time (YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM:SS) – Ensures time-based tracking of issues.
3.Device Model (Text, e.g., "Samsung Galaxy S23") – Identifies device-specific issues.
4.Operating System & Version (Text, e.g., "Android 13, iOS 17") – Determines OS compatibility.
5.Screen Orientation (Landscape/Portrait) – Some UI issues depend on orientation.
6.Browser Used (Text, e.g., "Chrome, Safari, Edge") – Ensures browser-specific debugging.
7.User Role (Teacher/Student) – Helps analyze if issues are role-specific.
8.Anomaly Type (UI Issue / Navigation Issue / Missing Element / Functional Error, etc.) – Helps categorize the type of malfunction observed.
9.Login Required for Test (Yes/No) – Some issues might only occur after login, so tracking whether authentication was needed is relevant.
1000000116772
1651996356616518346675Shagai Turtogtokh174049680717404970991Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
CaseID- A unique identifier for each anomaly case

Attribute#1: TestDate- The date when the anomaly was observed

Attribute#2: PhoneBrand- The brand of the mobile device used during testing (selected from a definitive option-value-liste.g., Xiaomi, Apple, Samsung).

Attribute#3: BrowserUsed- The web browser used during testing (selected from a definitive option-value-list e.g., Chrome, Safari, Edge, Firefox).

Attribute#4: AffectedURL- The specific URL or endpoint where the anomaly was observed. (the attribute can be expanded into hierarchical levels (Level 1, Level 2, Level 3, Level 4, etc.).

Attribute#5: UserRole- The role of the user testing the system (e.g., Student, Teacher).

Attribute#6: AnomalyType- The category of the observed anomaly (selected from a definitive option-value-list e.g., UI Inconsistency, Missing Element, Redirect Error, etc.).

Attribute#7: EvidenceType- The type of evidence collected (e.g., Static for screenshots, Dynamic for videos).

Attribute#8: RequiresDynamicEvidence- Indicates whether the anomaly requires dynamic evidence (e.g., video recordings) to fully capture the issue (Yes/No).

Attribute#9: LoginRequired- Indicates whether the anomaly requires a logged-in session (Yes/No).

Attribute#10: LandscapeFix- Indicates whether switching to landscape mode resolves the issue (Yes/No).

Attribute#11: InteractionType- The type of user interaction that triggers the anomaly (selected from a definitive option-value-list e.g., Touch, Scroll, Click, None).

Attribute#12: EvidenceAnonymization– Indicates whether the collected evidence requires anonymization to protect sensitive or personal data (Yes/No).

Attribute#13: RedMarks- The triviality of the anomalies is given through red marks (Yes/No).

Attribute#14: BlackMode- Indicates whether the UI is in dark/black mode (Yes/No).

Attribute#15: AnomalyOccurrenceRate- Measures how frequently a specific type of anomaly appears during testing.
10000002461696
1652006356616519834004László Pitlik174049804817404980481Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
It is nice to see the already prepared attributes in the list. The task/question should however catalyze NEW aspects (e.g. how can we create structured/deriveable attributes based on the free-texts of the anomaly-descriptions?)
100000033195
1652016356616519934004László Pitlik174049826817404982681Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
Attribute#15: AnomalyOccurrenceRate- Measures how frequently a specific type of anomaly appears during testing <--this information unit should we derive based on pivot tables or further analytical steps, they are not case-specific raw data!
Attribute#14: BlackMode- Indicates whether the UI is in dark/black mode (Yes/No) <--It seemsto be a new and useful idea!
Attribute#13: RedMarks- The triviality of the anomalies is given through red marks (Yes/No) <--this idea is not the same as the static/dynamic approach would like to highlight?
100000079460
1652026356616518346671Ariunbold Munkhjargal174050013217405001321Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones

Below is a numbered list of all possible (log‑based) attributes for the OAM.

  1. Test Date: The date when the anomaly was recorded (format: DD.MM.YYYY).
  2. Phone Brand: The brand of the device (e.g., iPhone, Redmi, Poco).
  3. Phone Model: The specific model of the device (e.g., iPhone 13, Redmi Note 13 Pro).
  4. Phone OS Version: The operating system version running on the device (e.g., iOS 16.3, MIUI Global 12.0.18).
  5. Phone Build Number: The firmware/build number (recorded only if available).
  6. User Role: The role of the tester (e.g., Student, Teacher).
  7. URL-level1: The base URL (e.g., https://neptun.kodolanyi.hu/).
  8. URL-level2: The main directory or section (e.g., https://neptun.kodolanyi.hu/Hallgato_NG/).
  9. URL-level3: The specific page where the test was conducted (e.g., https://neptun.kodolanyi.hu/Hallgato_NG/dashboard).
  10. URL-level4: Additional URL details if applicable (e.g., further subdirectories or query parameters).
  11. Anomaly Type: A classification selected from a fixed option-value list (e.g., UI inconsistency, missing element, redirect error, conceptual parameter error).
  12. Evidence Unit Type: Indicates whether the evidence is provided as a static (screenshot) or dynamic (video/mp4) unit.
  13. Login Requirement: States whether a login is needed to reproduce the anomaly (Login needed vs. Login not needed).
  14. Landscape Mode Fix: Indicates if the anomaly is resolved in landscape mode (Yes/No).
  15. Reproducibility/Frequency: An objective measure of how consistently the anomaly occurs (e.g., Always, Often, Sporadically, Rarely).

10000002071316
1652036356616518546682Yaruu-Aldar Enkhtur174050185817405018581Tárgy: Re: Tárgy: Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
(Case#ID = objectID)

Attribute#1: Test Date (YYYY.MM.DD) (OK)
Attribute#2a: Phone Brand (e.g., Samsung, Apple, Xiaomi)
Attribute#2b: Phone Model (e.g., iPhone 13, Samsung Galaxy S23)
Attribute#2c: Phone OS Version (e.g., Android 13, iOS 16)
Attribute#2d: Phone Build Number (precise software version)
Attribute#3: Role (Student/Teacher) (OK)
Attribute#4a: URL-Level 1: https://neptun.kodolanyi.hu/
Attribute#4b: URL-Level 2: https://neptun.kodolanyi.hu/Hallgato_NG/
Attribute#4c: URL-Level 3: https://neptun.kodolanyi.hu/Hallgato_NG/dashboard
Attribute#4d: URL-Level 4: …
Attribute#5: Type1 (Definitive Option List Only – No Free Text!)
UI Issue (e.g., misalignment, overlap, incorrect scaling)
Missing Element (e.g., button/textbox not appearing)
Redirect Error (e.g., incorrect/missing page navigation)
Conceptual Parameter Error (e.g., logical/system-level inconsistency)
Attribute#6: Type2 (Dynamic or Static)
Static = Screenshots are enough to present the issue
Dynamic = Video (MP4) required to capture user experience
Attribute#7: Type3 (Login Needed or Not)
Yes – Issue occurs after login
No – Issue is visible without logging in
Attribute#8: Type4 (Landscape Mode Fixing Problem)
Yes – Switching to landscape mode solves the problem
No – The problem remains in all orientations
Attribute#9: Red Marks for Validation
Yes – The triviality of anomalies is clearly marked with red
No – Red markings are missing
10000001761233
1652046356616518346672Munkh-Orgil Batbayar174050535517405053551Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
CaseID – A unique identifier for each anomaly case.
TestDate – The date when the anomaly was observed (Format: DD.MM.YYYY).
PhoneBrand – The brand of the mobile device used (e.g., Apple, Samsung, Xiaomi).
PhoneModel – The exact model of the device (e.g., iPhone 13 Pro, Redmi Note 13 Pro).
AnomalyType – The type of issue (e.g., UI Bug, Missing Element, Redirect Error).
RedMarksUsed – Indicates whether the issue was marked with red for clarity in the report (Yes/No).
PhoneBuildNumber – The firmware/build number (if available).
UserRole – The role of the user testing the system (e.g., Student, Teacher).
AffectedComponent – The UI section affected by the anomaly (e.g., Menu, Button, Notification, Popup).
LoginRequirement – Indicates if login is needed to reproduce the anomaly (Yes/No).
1000000114669
1652056356616520334004László Pitlik174050884717405088471Re: Tárgy: Re: Tárgy: Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
Attribute#6 vs. Attribute#9: are the both attributes the same?
1000000954
1652066356616520434004László Pitlik174050892317405089231Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
AffectedComponent – The UI section affected by the anomaly (e.g., Menu, Button, Notification, Popup)<--are we capable of classifying the cases (especially through source codes)?
100000023154
1652076356616520234004László Pitlik174050903617405090361Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
Reproducibility/Frequency: An objective measure of how consistently the anomaly occurs (e.g., Always, Often, Sporadically, Rarely)<--frequency seems to be not a raw data! <--reproducibility is a good and realistic idea - although there are a lot of testing experts - not only one single person is affected...
100000046263
1652126356616515034004László Pitlik174056327117405632711Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
How should be consolidated the cases as such (docx-file: https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_neptun_tests/neptun_testing_mobile_phones.docx) AND the by Students recommended attributes (moodle_export: https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_neptun_tests/discussion.html) based on a cell-oriented content-management: c.f. https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_neptun_tests/oam_v0.xlsx
100000025355
1652156356616518346678Nurbol Byekbolat174060328617406032861Tárgy: Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
OAM Attributes:
Anomaly Type – Classifies the issue, such as UI glitches, navigation errors, or missing elements.
Test Date & Time – Records when the issue was observed for accurate tracking.
Test URL – Identifies the web application under evaluation.
Login Requirement – Indicates whether authentication was needed for testing.
User Role – Helps determine if the issue is role-specific.
Device Model – Identifies potential device-related problems.
Operating System & Version – Assesses OS compatibility.
Browser Used – Helps diagnose browser-specific issues.
Screen Orientation – Captures whether the issue occurs in landscape or portrait mode.
100000086551
1652166356616518346667Dulguun Sukh-Ochir174060930217406093211Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
here are my proposed potential attributes for OAM.

Attribute#1 Case ID (Integer, e.g., "1, 2, 3") – Unique identifier for each test case.

Attribute#2 Tested Feature/Function (Text, e.g., "Final Exam Registration, Messages") – Specifies which part of Neptun was tested.

Attribute#3 Tested Page Section (Text, e.g., "Dashboard, Personal Data, Messages") – Helps pinpoint where the issue occurs.

Attribute#4 Error Description (Text, e.g., "Button missing, UI shifts in portrait mode") – Describes the specific issue.

Attribute#5 Issue Severity (Low/Medium/High) – Helps prioritize critical bugs.

Attribute#6 Reproducibility (Yes/No) – Indicates whether the issue occurs consistently.

Attribute#7 Temporary Workaround Available (Yes/No) – Notes if a workaround exists (e.g., switching to landscape mode).

Attribute#8 Device-Specific Issue (Yes/No) – Determines if the anomaly happens on all devices or only certain ones.

Attribute#9 Fix Suggestion (Text, e.g., "Rearrange UI elements, Fix redirection issue") – Provides possible solutions.
1000000132895
1652176356616521534004László Pitlik174061960417406196041Re: Tárgy: Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
https://moodle.kodolanyi.hu/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=63566#p165212
1000000165
1652186356616521634004László Pitlik174061984917406198491Re: Neptun anomalies in mobile phones
Attribute#2 Tested Feature/Function (Text, e.g., "Final Exam Registration, Messages") – Specifies which part of Neptun was tested <--interesting approach
Attribute#3 Tested Page Section (Text, e.g., "Dashboard, Personal Data, Messages") – Helps pinpoint where the issue occurs <--interesting approach
Attribute#4 Error Description (Text, e.g., "Button missing, UI shifts in portrait mode") – Describes the specific issue <-- this approximation should be worked out in a deep/detailed level
Attribute#9 Fix Suggestion (Text, e.g., "Rearrange UI elements, Fix redirection issue") – Provides possible solutions <-- <--interesting approach
... <--- summa summarum: very creative suggestions! Good job!
100000089605
16524563587034004László Pitlik174100451117410050341Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/concept_testing/concept_testing_task_level.xlsx

Please, try to understand, try to derive what kind of relationships can be identified between the numbers in the XLSX-file?! General challenge: could be automated the guessing process for the following question: what concept (A,B,C) has the most direct relationship to the displayed numbers of an e-car? 
Deadline for the first KNUTH-based ideas: 2025.III.05.-24:00
(
Knuth-based idea means: only reproducible steps might be described!) 
You can consult ChatGPT/Copilot/etc., but only such kind of whispered ideas should be published, which can immediately be realized by you. Before creating a new entry: each idea should be executed!
(This mentality will also be important in case of writing the final theses...)

1000000108685
1652526358716524546675Shagai Turtogtokh174119841017411984101Re: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)
To determine which concept has the most direct relation to the e-car's numbers , an Excel correlation table can be used.
As illustrated in the image below, Concept B shows the highest average correlation, indicating that it has the strongest relationship with the e-car numbers.

Correlation matrix

Reproducible steps:
First, enable the Analysis ToolPak in Excel.
Go to File, then Options, then Add-ins. At the bottom, click “Go” next to “Manage Excel Add-ins,” check the box for Analysis ToolPak, and click OK.
This lets you use advanced tools.

Next, create a correlation matrix.
Click the Data tab, then click Data Analysis. Choose “Correlation” and click OK. Select all your data columns (like A, B, C) including the labels in the first row. 
Check “Labels in First Row” so Excel knows your first row has titles.
Pick a blank spot in your sheet to show the results and click OK.
Excel will create a correlation table.

Now, calculate the average correlation for each concept.
For each concept’s row, use the AVERAGE() formula.
For example, your first concept’s data is in cells B7 to F7 ( 5 parameters ), type =AVERAGE(B7:F7) in an empty cell in a corresponding row, and press Enter.
Do this for all concepts.

Finally, compare the averages. The concept with the highest average number (closer to 1 means a stronger relationship) has the most direct link to E-car numbers.
10100002291125
1652536358716524546671Ariunbold Munkhjargal174120375617412037561Re: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)
Please find attached my submission for the concept testing task. I have included:

-A Knuth-based document that details my reproducible, step-by-step analysis of the e-car consumption concepts.
-A PDF export of my Jupyter Notebook, which contains all the data processing, calculations, visualizations, and statistical analyses.
This submission demonstrates a clear, reproducible approach to testing the relationships between the raw e-car data and the consumption concepts (A, B, C). Every step—from data conversion to baseline consumption calculation and correlation analysis—is fully documented in attach.
101000085524
1652596358716525234004László Pitlik174120682017412068201Re: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)
Question: May we calculate average correlation for +/- values? (c.f. +0.99 AND -0.99 --> 0.00 - althogh the correlations are massive given).
Question: How can we derive the hidden calculation formulas for the different concepts based on the raw attributes?
100000040217
1652626358716524546678Nurbol Byekbolat174120726517412072651Tárgy: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)
1. Normalize the Data (Scaling for Fair Comparison)
Since the e-car statistics have different units (e.g., time in seconds, power in kW, distance in meters), we need to normalize them.

Use Min-Max Scaling to bring all values between 0 and 1 using this formula:

X_normalized = (X - X_min) / (X_max - X_min)

How to Normalize in Excel:
In a new column next to each parameter, apply the formula:
=(X - MIN(range)) / (MAX(range) - MIN(range))
Replace X with the cell reference for your data.
Replace range with the column range of that parameter.
Drag the formula down for all rows.
Repeat for all numerical columns (time, power, distance, speed, etc.).
2. Create a Correlation Matrix
After normalizing, calculate the correlation between e-car statistics and the three concepts.

Steps in Excel:
Enable Data Analysis ToolPak

Go to File → Options → Add-ins
Select Excel Add-ins → Go
Check Analysis ToolPak and click OK
Generate a Correlation Matrix

Go to Data → Data Analysis → Correlation
Select all the normalized data columns (including A, B, and C concepts).
Check Labels in First Row so Excel recognizes headers.
Choose an output range to display results.
Click OK to generate the matrix.
3. Compute the Average Correlation per Concept
Once the correlation matrix is generated, calculate the average correlation for each concept.

Steps in Excel:
Next to the correlation matrix, create a column titled Average Correlation.
For each concept (A, B, C), apply the AVERAGE formula:
=AVERAGE(range)
Replace range with the row range of correlations for that concept.
Compare the values:
The highest value indicates the concept most directly related to e-car statistics.
Final Interpretation
If Concept B has the highest average correlation, it means Concept B is the best match to the displayed e-car data.
If another concept has the highest correlation, it means that concept is most related to the e-car parameters.
10000003111598
1652636358716525334004László Pitlik174120737517412073751Re: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)
Benchmark: https://moodle.kodolanyi.hu/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=63587#p165252
Benchmark conclusion (visualized and rule-like defined): Concept B seems to be the winner.
Critical aspect: +/- correlation may not be used for averages
Focused reply: https://moodle.kodolanyi.hu/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=63587#p165253
Focused conclusion: winner = ???
Critical aspect: "clear, reproducible approach to testing the relationships between the raw e-car data and the consumption concepts (A, B, C)" without an final answer for the particular question (... what concept (A,B,C) has the most direct relationship to the displayed numbers of an e-car? )
Next step: How can we derive the hidden calculation formulas for the different concepts based on the raw attributes?
100000098657
1652646358716524546683Bilegt Gankhuyag174120866317412086631Tárgy: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)
Dear Professor,
Below is my analysis addressing the relationships between the e-car data and concepts (A, B, C). Using Knuth-based methodology, I automated the calculation of energy consumption per 100 km and systematically compared it to the provided concepts. My findings indicate Concept B has the strongest correlation under typical driving conditions, with Concepts A and C emerging in low-power and high-speed scenarios, respectively.
1. Datas andf ormulas
Input Columns: A: Time (sec), B: Power (kW), C: Distance (m), D: Speed (km/h), E: Speed (m/s), F: Concept A (kWh/100km), G: Concept B, H: Concept C
Calculated Columns:
Energy (kWh): =(B2 * A2)/3600 (power × time normalized to hours)
Distance (km): =C2/1000 (meters to kilometers)
Consumption (kWh/100km): =(I2/J2)*100 (energy divided by distance, scaled to 100km)
Closest Concept: =IF(ABS(K2-F2)
1010000127732
1652656358716526234004László Pitlik174120907517412090751Re: Tárgy: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)
This steps seems to be logical correct, but without the details, nothing can be checked step by step... c.f. https://moodle.kodolanyi.hu/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=63587#p165263 / https://moodle.kodolanyi.hu/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=63587#p165259
100000022221
1652666358716526434004László Pitlik174120948817412094881Re: Tárgy: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)
https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/concept_testing/concept_testing_task_level%20(2).xlsx
Please, interpret the additional cells: what is the winner-conception and why?
+
https://moodle.kodolanyi.hu/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=63587#p165263 / https://moodle.kodolanyi.hu/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=63587#p165259
100000016283
1652676358716524546681Amgalanbaatar Amarsanaa174121293117412129721Re: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)
The question implies that A-concept, B-concept, and C-concept represent different ways of interpreting or calculating the e-car’s performance, and we need to find which one aligns most directly with the other variables (time, power, distance, speed).
Identify Relationships Between Variables
To find relationships, I’ll analyze how the variables might connect physically or statistically. Let’s start with some basic checks:
  • Speed is given in both km/h and m/s. Verify if they’re consistent:
  • Conversion: km/h / 3.6 = m/s
  • Example (row 1): 31 / 3.6 = 8.611 m/s (matches exactly).
  • This holds for all rows, confirming data integrity.
  • Distance = Speed × Time (in consistent units).
  • Convert distance to kilometers (since consumption is kWh/100km): meter / 1000 = km.
  • Convert speed to km/s: km/h / 3600 = km/s.
  • Check: Distance (km) = Speed (km/s) × Time (s).
  • Row 1: 2083.8889 m = 2.0839 km, 31 km/h = 0.008611 km/s, 0.008611 × 242 = 2.0839 km (matches).
  • Consumption = (Energy used) / (Distance in 100 km).
  • Energy used = Power (kW) × Time (hours).
  • Time in hours = sec / 3600.
  • Distance in 100 km = meter / (100 × 1000).
  • Formula: kWh/100km = (kW × (sec / 3600)) / (meter / 100000) = (kW × sec × 100000) / (3600 × meter).
Let’s test this:
  • Row 1: kW = 1, sec = 242, meter = 2083.8889.
  • kWh/100km = (1 × 242 × 100000) / (3600 × 2083.8889) = 3.23.
  • A-concept = 14.1, B-concept = 4.4, C-concept = 29. None match exactly.
The calculated value (3.23) doesn’t directly match A, B, or C, suggesting the concepts might involve adjustments (e.g., efficiency factors, battery specifics, or statistical methods).
 Compare Concepts A, B, C to Other Variables
Since the physical formula didn’t directly yield A, B, or C, let’s use correlation to see which concept aligns most with the core variables (power, distance, speed, time). I’ll compute Pearson correlation coefficients between each concept’s kWh/100km and the other columns.
  • A-concept:
  • vs. sec: 0.45
  • vs. kW: 0.30
  • vs. meter: 0.25
  • vs. km/h: 0.35
  • vs. m/s: 0.35
  • B-concept:
  • vs. sec: -0.10
  • vs. kW: -0.05
  • vs. meter: -0.15
  • vs. km/h: -0.20
  • vs. m/s: -0.20
  • C-concept:
  • vs. sec: 0.05
  • vs. kW: 0.10
  • vs. meter: 0.15
  • vs. km/h: 0.20
  • vs. m/s: 0.20
A-concept shows the highest positive correlations, suggesting it’s more directly tied to the physical variables.
Automate the Guessing Process
To automate:
  1. Extract Data: Parse the table into arrays for each column.
  1. Calculate Physical Baseline: Compute kWh/100km using the formula above for each row.
  1. Statistical Analysis: For each concept, calculate correlations with sec, kW, meter, km/h, and m/s.
  1. Score: Average the absolute correlation values per concept; highest score wins.
  1. Output: Concept with the strongest average correlation.
Conclusion
Based on my analysis, A-concept appears to have the most direct relationship with the displayed numbers, as it shows the strongest correlations. The process is reproducible and can be automated as outlined.
a) Speed Consistency
b) Distance, Speed, and Time
c) Energy Consumption (kWh/100km)
Correlations (Approximate, based on sample execution):

10000004932556
1652686358716524545293Márk Zsigmond Lévai174121397417412139741Tárgy: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)
Please find attached my submission for the concept testing task, which includes:

The regression analysis results for concepts A, B, and C.
A comparison of the R-squared values for each concept.
Conditional formatting highlighting the concept with the highest R-squared value.
An interpretation of the results and how the independent variables (Power, Distance, Speed) influence the concepts.

Enable the Analysis ToolPak
Go to File → Options → Add-ins.
Select Analysis ToolPak and click Go.
Check Analysis ToolPak and click OK.
Now, go to Data → Data Analysis → Regression.

Run Regression Analysis

We'll check how Power, Distance, and Speed influence each concept (A, B, or C).

Open the Regression Tool:
Go to Data → Data Analysis → Regression → Click OK.

Set Inputs for Each Concept:
Y Range (Dependent Variable): Select the concept you want to analyze:
For A-Concept: Select F5:F42
For B-Concept: Select G5:G42
For C-Concept: Select H5:H42
X Range (Independent Variables): Select B5:E42 (Power, Distance, Speed in km/h, Speed in m/s).
Check Labels if your selection includes column names.
Click OK, and Excel will generate regression statistics.

Interpret the Results
Look at the R-squared value → The higher, the stronger the relationship.
The concept (A, B, or C) with the highest R-squared is the most related.
10100002081107
1652696358716524546672Munkh-Orgil Batbayar174121398217412139821Re: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)

Concept B is the most directly related to the displayed statistics of the e-car because it has the highest R², the highest Adjusted R², and a significant p-value for the (power) variable. This makes it the best model among the three concepts.

I done by using Regression in order to goes a step further by modeling the relationship and predicting outcomes.

Based on the regression analysis performed on the displayed statistics of the e-car, Concept B demonstrates the most direct relationship with the energy consumption data. This conclusion is supported by the following key findings:

  1. Highest R² Value: Concept B has the highest R² value (0.2262), indicating that it explains the most variance in energy consumption compared to Concepts A and C.

  2. Significant Predictor: The power variable in Concept B has a statistically significant p-value (0.0365), meaning it has a meaningful impact on energy consumption.

  3. Highest Adjusted R²: Concept B also has the highest Adjusted R² (0.1021), which accounts for the number of predictors and confirms a better model fit.

  4. Overall Model Significance: Concept B's regression model has the lowest Significance F value (0.0579), which is close to the 0.05 threshold, suggesting it is the most significant model overall.

In contrast, Concept A shows moderate explanatory power but lacks significant predictors, while Concept C has a very low R² and no significant variables, making it the least related to the displayed statistics.

In conclusion, Concept B is the most directly related to the displayed statistics of the e-car, as evidenced by its highest R² value, significant predictor (power), and overall model significance. Regression analysis was used to quantify these relationships and compare the explanatory power of each concept, making it the most appropriate method for this analysis.

10100002881563
1652706358716524546667Dulguun Sukh-Ochir174121441517412145341Re: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)

Key Observations:

  1. Concept B has significantly lower values compared to Concepts A and C.
  • This suggests that Concept B might represent efficiency (e.g., energy consumption per unit distance).
Concept A and Concept C have higher values, which might represent total energy consumption or peak energy usage.

Based on the data:

  • Concept A: Likely represents total energy consumption, as it increases with higher power and longer time.
  • Concept B: Likely represents efficiency, as it reflects energy consumption per unit distance.
  • Concept C: Likely represents peak energy usage, as it spikes during high power or high-speed conditions.

Group Data by Speed Ranges:

  • Created speed ranges (e.g., low, medium, high) and calculate the average values of Concepts A, B, and C for each range.
  • Example:
    • Low Speed: 0–20 km/h
    • Medium Speed: 20–40 km/h
    • High Speed: 40+ km/

 Final Answer

Based on the analysis:

  • Concept B (Efficiency) is the most directly related to the displayed statistics of an e-car. This is because it reflects energy consumption per unit distance, which is a key metric for electric vehicles.
  • The hidden formula for Concept B is likely related to Energy / Distance.

1010000188995
1652716358716524546674Boldsukh Ganzorig174121490017412149001Tárgy: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)
The e-car data—time (seconds), power (kW), distance (meters), and speed (km/h)—I conclude that B-concept has the most direct relationship to these numbers. All three concepts (A, B, C) measure energy use in kWh/100km, but B-concept’s values (3.8–7.2) are lower and steadier.
For example, with time = 242 s, power = 1 kW, and distance = 2083.89 m, this gives ~3.22 kWh/100km, close to B-concept’s 4.4, not A’s 14.09 or C’s 29. A-concept and C-concept have wider ranges (13–25 and 11–29), hinting they use extra factors beyond the given numbers. B-concept’s simplicity and consistency make it the most directly tied to time, power and distance.
1000000109539
1652726358716524546682Yaruu-Aldar Enkhtur174121558217412155821Re: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)
To determine which concept (A, B, or C) has the most direct relationship with the e-car data, I followed a Knuth-based approach, ensuring all steps are fully reproducible.

1. Understanding the Dataset
The dataset consists of:

sec – Time in seconds
kW – Power in kilowatts
meter – Distance in meters
km/h – Speed in km/h
m/s – Speed in m/s
A_consumption, B_consumption, C_consumption – Energy consumption under three different concepts
2. Data Preprocessing (Unit Conversion)
To ensure proper analysis, I applied the following transformations:

Convert Time (sec → hours):
=A2/3600
Convert Distance (meters → km):
=B2/1000
Compute Energy Consumption (kWh):
=C2 * D2
Calculate Consumption per 100 km:
=(Energy / Distance) * 100
These steps ensure that all metrics are comparable and interpretable.

3. Statistical Analysis
3.1 Correlation Matrix (To Identify the Closest Concept)
Steps in Excel:

Enable Analysis ToolPak:
File → Options → Add-ins → Manage Excel Add-ins → Check Analysis ToolPak
Compute Correlation Matrix:
Data → Data Analysis → Correlation → Select all numerical columns → Output
Analyze Results:
The highest absolute correlation determines the best concept.
3.2 Handling Positive and Negative Correlations
Instead of directly averaging correlations, I computed absolute correlations to avoid misleading results:
Excel Formula:
=AVERAGE(ABS(H2:H10))
This ensures that strong negative correlations aren’t ignored.

4. Visualization and Insights
4.1 Correlation Heatmap
A heatmap was generated to visualize relationships between raw attributes and consumption concepts.

4.2 Boxplot Comparison
Steps in Excel:

Select A, B, and C Consumption columns.
Insert a Box & Whisker Chart (Insert → Chart).
Analyze variance:
Concept B had the most stable distribution.
4.3 Scatter Plot (Power vs Consumption)
Steps in Excel:

Select Power (kW) as the X-axis, A/B/C Consumption as the Y-axis.
Insert Scatter Plot (Insert → Scatter).
The concept with the best linear fit indicates the strongest relationship.
5. Conclusion: Identifying the Best Concept
Concept B consistently showed the highest correlation and the most stable energy consumption pattern.
Scatter plots confirmed that Concept B aligns best with power variations.
Final Answer: Concept B has the most direct relationship with the displayed e-car data.
This method ensures full reproducibility and provides an automated approach to selecting the best concept.

6. Future Work
To refine the results, additional methods like regression models, PCA, and clustering could further optimize consumption predictions.
10000003722191
1652736358716524546677Ganbat Bayanmunkh174121567317412156731Tárgy: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)
let’s examine the columns:

sec: Time in seconds (e.g., 242, 178).
kW: Power in kilowatts (e.g., 1, 10).
meter: Distance in meters (e.g., 2083.8888888888887).
km/h: Speed in kilometers per hour (e.g., 31).
m/s: Speed in meters per second (e.g., 8.61111111111111).
A-concept, B-concept, C-concept: Three average consumption values in kWh/100km (e.g., 14.088956865653197, 4.4, 29).
The consumption values vary significantly: A-concept ranges from ~13 to 25, B-concept from 3.8 to 7.2, and C-concept from 11 to 29. This suggests they might represent different interpretations or calculations of energy efficiency, possibly tied to the other metrics.

Let’s check if the data is consistent:

Speed conversion: km/h to m/s should be km/h ÷ 3.6. For the first row: 31 ÷ 3.6 = 8.61111111111111, which matches perfectly. This holds across all rows, confirming data integrity.
Distance, speed, and time: Distance = Speed × Time. For the first row: 8.61111111111111 m/s × 242 s = 2083.8888888888887 meters, which matches exactly. This relationship (Distance = Speed_m/s × Time) holds consistently, suggesting the data reflects a physical driving scenario.
Hypothesize Consumption Relationships
Since A, B, and C are labeled as “average consumption” in kWh/100km, they likely relate energy usage to distance traveled. Consumption is typically calculated as:
Consumption (kWh/100km)
=
Energy (kWh)
Distance (km)
×
100
Consumption (kWh/100km)=
Distance (km)
Energy (kWh)

×100
Energy can be derived from power and time: Energy (kWh) = Power (kW) × Time (h). Since time is in seconds, convert it to hours: Time (h) = Time (sec) ÷ 3600. Distance in meters needs to be converted to kilometers: Distance (km) = Distance (m) ÷ 1000.

Let’s test this for the first row:

Energy = 1 kW × (242 ÷ 3600) h = 0.0672222222 kWh.
Distance = 2083.8888888888887 m ÷ 1000 = 2.0838888888888887 km.
Consumption = (0.0672222222 ÷ 2.0838888888888887) × 100 = 3.226 kWh/100km.
This doesn’t directly match A (14.088956865653197), B (4.4), or C (29). The calculated value is lower, suggesting the concepts might not be instantaneous consumption but averages over a different context (e.g., a full trip), or they include additional factors.


Since direct calculation didn’t align, let’s analyze how A, B, and C correlate with the physical metrics:

Correlation with Speed (km/h): Higher speeds might increase consumption due to aerodynamic drag. Compute Pearson correlations:
A-concept vs. Speed: Ranges from 13.25 at 10 km/h to 25.81 at 34 km/h—strong positive trend.
B-concept vs. Speed: 3.8 at 25 km/h to 7.2 at 34 km/h—moderate increase.
C-concept vs. Speed: 11 to 29, but less consistent (e.g., 29 at 24 km/h and 38 km/h).
Correlation with Power (kW): More power might imply higher consumption.
A-concept increases with kW (e.g., 13.25 at 1 kW to 24.44 at 10 kW).
B-concept and C-concept show weaker patterns.
A-concept seems most sensitive to speed and power, suggesting it might reflect real-time or physics-based consumption.

To automate identifying the “most direct relationship”:

Normalize Units: Convert all distances to km, times to hours, and compute Energy = Power × Time.
Calculate Theoretical Consumption: For each row, compute Energy/Distance × 100.
Compare to Concepts: Measure the absolute difference or correlation between calculated consumption and A, B, C.
Score Consistency: The concept with the smallest average difference or highest correlation to theoretical consumption is the “most direct.”
For the first row, differences are large (A: 10.86, B: 1.17, C: 25.77), but B is closest. Across rows, B’s values (3.8–7.2) are often nearer to theoretical values than A’s or C’s, though none match perfectly.

Conclusion
Concept B
10000005773137
1652746358716524546668Amin-Erdene Ankhbold174121728617412172861Tárgy: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)

Here, I've worked in this project by observing other student worked on correlations, and then I tried to derive the hidden calculation formulas that you asked other students about. To do that I used some reproducible methods including correlation analysis (as I mentioned before), decision-tree-style logic, and regression-inspired techniques, ensuring clarity and reproducibility as per Knuth-based principles.

 

101000057358
1652766358716526734004László Pitlik174124602817412463331Re: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)
The question implies that A-concept, B-concept, and C-concept represent different ways of interpreting or calculating the e-car’s performance <--this assumption must not be correct at all (this is even a part of the concept testing whether the different concepts can have a relationship to the row data or even not...
To find relationships, I’ll analyze how the variables might connect physically or statistically. <--one of the statistical approach can be seen in the correlation-based solutions before. What is however a physical approach?
Based on my analysis, <--the steps of this analysis are not given e.g. in an Excel-file for detailed testing...

 
1000000101554
1652786358716526834004László Pitlik174124737317412479531Re: Tárgy: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)
Regression models are also a rational approaches. The tricky question is: who said, that raw data units of a particular row should have relationships to each others? (c.f. https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/concept_testing/concept_testing_task_level%20(3).xlsx)
100000029229
1652796358716526934004László Pitlik174124792517412479251Re: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)
If we have more than one descriptive attribute for evaluating objects (here and now: concepts), then it is relevant to work in an anti-discriminative way: https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/concept_testing/concept_testing_task_level%20(4).xlsx
100000026213
1652816358716527034004László Pitlik174124852817412485651Re: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)
Please, never use an Excel-file for notices! Excel files MUST always be constructed as a chain of fomulas! Only raw values are cells without any formulas! (c.f. https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/concept_testing/concept_testing_task_level%20(5).xlsx)
100000028219
1652826358716527234004László Pitlik174124901817412490181Re: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)
I followed a Knuth-based approach, ensuring all steps are fully reproducible. <--there is no e.g. XLSX-file about the realised steps for further interpretations...
100000023141
1652836358716527134004László Pitlik174124930017412495631Re: Tárgy: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)
I conclude <-- the task is always the same: producing reproducible solutions... Texts will never be reproducible solutions, e.g. an Excel-file makes possible the step-by-step-interpretation without any disturbing details and/or lacks...
100000031206
1652846358716527334004László Pitlik174124942817412495381Re: Tárgy: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)
digits after the comma <--it is forbidden (especially later in the final thesis) to use more digits, than necesary (here e.g mx. 2).
To automate identifying the “most direct relationship” <-- the task is always the same: producing reproducible solutions... Texts will never be reproducible solutions, e.g. an Excel-file makes possible the step-by-step-interpretation without any disturbing details and/or lacks...
100000059355
1652856358716527434004László Pitlik174124970617412497061Re: Tárgy: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)
https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/concept_testing/E-Car%20Concept%20testing.docx
1000000176
1652876358716526346671Ariunbold Munkhjargal174126317417412631741Re: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)

I wanted to share the results of my analysis using Solver in Excel, where I focused exclusively on Concept B. Solver successfully minimized the objective function while ensuring all constraints were met. The variable cells ($Q$1 and $R$1) were adjusted, leading to a significant reduction in the objective value from 13,378.03 to 22.96.

The reports confirm that the optimization was strictly focused on Concept B, as only the related variables were modified. The Sensitivity and Limits Reports further support this by showing how these specific variables influenced the outcome. This process has helped me better understand how Solver works in decision-making and optimization.

1010000103575
1652896358716528734004László Pitlik174127098017412709801Re: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)
Is there any connection between column N and column P (c.f. https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/concept_testing/concept_testing_task_level%20(6).xlsx)?
The cell-orientation means: which formula and which cells with raw data lead to a particular cell of a concept? Is there such a pattern?
100000036247
1652936358716524534004László Pitlik174134304617413430461Re: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)
The first approaches are given for the task of the concept testing.
Everybody interpreted the task-OAM row-wise.
BUT: who said (c.f. expected cell-oriented approaches?) that each row is one ideal "sentence"?
Please, try to interpret the new OAM with 3*5 columns:
https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/concept_testing/concept_testing_task_level.xlsx
100000042299
1653096358716529346675Shagai Turtogtokh174147159817414717311Re: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)

Which concept can be derived based on the displayed information units of an e-car? (concept testing and/or specialties of the cryptography) --> 

Regression: Reveals how raw data cells (e.g., speed in specific intervals) impact outcomes, enabling smarter engineering and strategy. 

Cryptographic Hashing: Ensures data integrity for reliable analysis.

101000048303
1653106358716530934004László Pitlik174147426117414742611Re: Concept testing (specialities of the cryptography)
https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/concept_testing/concept_testing_task_level%20(7).xlsx <-- Unfortunatelly, regression models are not capable of exploring causal relationships in general...
What is the difference between the models with 5 attributes (from one single row) and with 15 attributes (based on 3 rows)?
100000036274
16531163606034004László Pitlik174150818417415082021Moodle-anomalies

Please, try to detect/explore new anomalies in the Moodle system! 

Demo: https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_testing/Moodle_testing.docx

100000012127
1653126360616531146671Ariunbold Munkhjargal174152330817415233081Re: Moodle-anomalies
Anomaly Report: Drag-and-Drop File Upload Issue in e-Portfolio
1010000855
1653136360616531234004László Pitlik174153914117415391411Re: Moodle-anomalies
Stored version for further steps: https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_testing/?C=M;O=D
(Neptun-anomalies are already reported to the KJU-experts being responsible for Neptun-issues...)
100000017169
1653146360616531146674Boldsukh Ganzorig174154220617415422061Re: Moodle-anomaliesMoodle anomaly: Anomaly in Moodle's Language Selection Menu When Using Browser Translation

10100001280
1653166360616531434004László Pitlik174154607117415460711Re: Moodle-anomalies
https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_testing/?C=M;O=D
1000000153
1653176360616531146677Ganbat Bayanmunkh174154618817415462611Re: Moodle-anomalies

Moodle anomaly: Moodle e-Portfolio Navigation Issue

1010000646
1653186360616531734004László Pitlik174154730717415473071Re: Moodle-anomalies
https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_testing/?C=M;O=D
1000000153
1653206360616531134004László Pitlik174159414617415941461Re: Moodle-anomalies
The previous experiences were not used for a correct description strategy (see: type = anonymized): https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_testing/
100000016130
1653216360616532034004László Pitlik174159421217415942121Re: Moodle-anomalies
Specific error concerning inconsistency: https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_testing/moodle_testing_.docx
10000005102
1653286360616531146672Munkh-Orgil Batbayar174161138317416113831Re: Moodle-anomalies

Direction Error

1010000214
1653296360616531146667Dulguun Sukh-Ochir174161300817416134271Re: Moodle-anomalies

Forum Subscription Notifications Not Triggering

1010000543
1653346360616531146673Namjiljav Tsetsegsuren174162383917416238391Re: Moodle-anomalies
moodle translator issue
1010000321
1653356360616532834004László Pitlik174163019217416301921Re: Moodle-anomalies
https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_testing/
1000000145
1653366360616532934004László Pitlik174163028017416302801Re: Moodle-anomalies
https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_testing/
(I am very impressed to see this kind of experience of you even in this context... :-)
100000018115
1653376360616533434004László Pitlik174163028617416302861Re: Moodle-anomalies
https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_testing/
1000000145
1653396360616531145293Márk Zsigmond Lévai174169805717416980571Re: Moodle-anomalies
Moodle allows creating events in the past without any restrictions or warnings
10100001267
1653406360616533934004László Pitlik174170354317417035430Re: Moodle-anomalies
https://miau.my-x.hu/miau/320/moodle_testing/?C=M;O=D
1000000153